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Kampforum.no  |  Disipliner  |  Filipino Martial Arts (Moderators: Richard Haye, Agandhjin)  |  Topic: Kali, Arnis og Escrima HVA !??! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Kali, Arnis og Escrima HVA !??!

Richard Haye
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Feed your mind. Protect your body
« on: 27.04.04 at 08:04:51 »

Det med opphavet på de forskjellige FMA er et svært omdiskutert tema, det jeg legger frem er slik jeg har forstått det.

Forskjellen mellom Kali, Arnis og Escrima

For å si det enkelt, så er det egentlig  ikke noe forskjell. Filippinene er et land som består av flere regioner der befolkningen snakker forskjellig språk. Kali, Arnis og Eskrima er hovedsakelig navnet på det samme i tre forskjellige språk, som refererer til kampsport trening med og uten våpen. Utøvere fra disse artene var kjent for sine evner til å sloss like bra med og uten våpen.

Kali, slik begrepet blir brukt i dag, ha mange mulige opphav. Uansett opphav, så er det vanskelig å tidfeste begrepets opprinnelse. En teori går ut på at begrepet skriver seg tilbake til legenden om Kali-skolen på Bothoan, på øya Panay. Denne skolen skal angivelig ha blitt etablert av "the ten datus", de ti høvdingene som på 1200 tallet skal ha flyktet hit fra Kalimantan ( sted på nordsiden av Borneo ). Dette er en svært gammel legende, og mye tyder på at den ikke er stort mer enn det; kun en historie uten fundament i bevis. Men denne historien er svært viktig for mange filippinere, og noen kobler navnet Kali opp mot stedsnavnet Kalimantan, som en forkortelse.

 Det sies at Escrima ( av spanske esgrima = fekting ) og Arnis ( av spanske armas eller arnes ) ble begge utviklet under og etter den spanske invasjonen i 1521. På denne tiden ble det selvfølgelig forbudt å bære/eie bladvåpen for filippinere, så de lærte seg å bruke stokk i stedet. (Stokkene var laget av rattan - en spesiell filippinsk bambus - og er ca. 70 centimeter lange.) På denne måten utviklet det seg nye teknikker som spesialiserte seg på bruken av dette våpenet, og de spesielle egenskapene som stokken har. Senere har dette utviklet seg til en konkurranseform, og det er spesielt i denne sammenhengen at mange bruker betegnelsen Arnis. Jeg er fullt klar over at betegnelsen Arnis brukes i mange system, noen mer og andre mindre konkurranseorienterte. Det samme kan sies om Escrima.
 
Ikke bare stokker !

De fleste tror at Filippinsk Kampsport (heretter FMA) bare handler om å ”sloss med stokker.” Rattan stokkene er et av verktøyene som blir brukt i treningen. Mann kan også sparre med stokkene, men det er ikke bare dette FMA dreier seg om. FMA er like mye basert på  våpenløse teknikker som våpen basert trening. FMA utøvere er som regel kjent for sin knivforsvars trening, dette grunnet av kniven har alltid hadt en sentral plass i de Filippinsk kultur. FMA dekker alle kampavstander, her trenes det i å forsvare seg mot våpenløse angrep samt  angrep med våpen. Ved angrep mot våpen, trenes det i å kunne bruke hva som helst som redskap. Det kommer ann på hvor du er og hva som er tilgjengelig. Dette kan være alt en mobiltelefon, stokk, askebeger, en avis til og med en vanlig penn., eller bare tomme hender. I FMA undervises det i å se beslektskapet mellom å trene med og uten våpen, det vil si å se at hva du kan gjøre med stokken kan også gjøres uten. Derfor anses FMA som en komplett kampsport og ikke bare en stokke kampsport.
Det finnes også FMA som ikke blander inn stokker i det hele tatt, Dumog ( Filippinsk bryting ligner på ju jitsu) , Panantukan (Fil. Boksing) og Sikaran ( Ligner på thaiboksning)som er eksempler på tre arter som bare er basert på våpenløse teknikker.

Lett å lære!
Når mann snakker om FMA så sies det ukomplisert og lett å lære. ( det er hvis du har noen som kan lære deg det, det er ikke lett å lære hvis du skal holde på alene i en kjeller  Tongue )Dette på grunn av hvordan ting er systematisert og lagt opp. FMA var designet for å være lett å lære. Historiene sier at de som kunne arten hadde korte innføringer for mennene i landsbyen. Dette for å kunne forsvare seg mot angrep utenfra. Det var ofte ikke mulig å trene over en lang periode, så prinsippene måtte være lettfattelige og effektive.

Flow
Det  jeg syntes skiller FMA fra andre mer tradisjonelle kampsportet er ”flowet”. Mange trener ved at en person angriper den,  andre kontrer så er det en liten pause og så er det samme igjen. FMA lager små driller som gjør at du angriper og kontrer kontinuerlig i en flytende bevegelse. Teknikkene blir gjort om og om igjen til de er automatisert. Når du kan prinsippene i drillene er det lett å bryte inn og ut av dem og legge inn vilkårlige angrep. Som regel kan de samme driller brukes uansett om du eller motstanderen har våpen. Så man lærer prinsipper og ikke teknikker. Kommer angrepet fra høyre, venstre med eller uten våpen blir  det uvesenlig, prinsippene er ment å fungere okke som.
« Last Edit: 21.05.04 at 09:00:14 by Richard Haye » Logged

Shoto
« Reply #1 on: 29.04.04 at 18:44:18 »

Meget kurant skrevet Riche!

Roy
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Richard Haye
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Feed your mind. Protect your body
« Reply #2 on: 30.04.04 at 05:54:33 »

takk Roy smile

Ses vi i Sverige??
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Shoto
« Reply #3 on: 30.04.04 at 08:28:43 »

Klart vi sees i Sverige biggrin

Ser ut til at det blir tre sommerleirer på meg i år Cool

Kali Sikaran i Sverige, MMA på Skagen i Danmark og NTN Taekwon-Do i Surnadal. Ja dette blir riktig så fett Grin

See you my friend. biggrin

Roy
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Torkil Johnsen
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« Reply #4 on: 21.05.04 at 08:51:03 »

God forklaring ja smile
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Torkil Johnsen
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Reedemer and Destroyer...
« Reply #5 on: 17.06.04 at 15:07:08 »

Hav skjer,   kampbrødre ?

Jeg er ny her, og har lett rundt i internett om info om FMA = Filippino Martial arts..

til de av dere som vil vite om hva om er kjennetegnet til FMA, prinsipp, historie og denslags...

her er noen linker til dere som er flinke i engelsk...
http://palaisipan.net/index.php/Articles/ArticleNo6
(generell historie om FMA, dets evolusjon, osv..)

http://palaisipan.net/index.php/Articles/ArticleNo4
(artikkel om opprinnelse om FMA...)

http://palaisipan.net/index.php/Articles/ArticleNo3
(hva FMA VIRKELIG ER...)  Grin

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/digests/fmafaq.htm
(lang FAQ om FMA or FMA liste over stiler og mestre, for tiden er listen ufullstendig siden så mye FMA stiler skapes for hvert år som går...)

Og med dette håper jeg at mine kunnskaper om FMA kan deles med dere, brødre..
god reise videre i FMA...  Grin

Videre kan dere også besøke denne forumet også...
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30
(interasjonal forum om kampsport. Denne linken tar for seg Fillippinsk Kampsort. heftig mye info og diskusjoner rundt emnet. Fillippinske arnisadorer/kalistaer/eskrimadorer er ofte her og poster.. lurt å sjekke opp disse også.)

Besøk disse hvis dere vil...

MVH LastFMArnisador.

PS: ta kontakt hvis dere alle vil ha mer info.. kan finne linker og poste det her, hvis moderator tillater dette. på forhånd takk.
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Peace is not without conflict, it is to cope with conflict..

Leo Giron, Giron Arnis Eskrima
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« Reply #6 on: 12.04.05 at 16:06:34 »

Tryggest å spørre om de kan lære bort litt stickfighting da Wink
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« Reply #7 on: 27.10.06 at 12:53:29 »

THE ORIGINS OF ESKRIMA - Part 1
By: Ned Nepangue M.D.
We can only make a guess as to the origin of eskrima/arnis/estocada since there are no conclusive written records available in the archives to assist us in our research (that is, if we are really serious about this). Earlier writings did mentioned in passing, something regarding pre-Hispanic martial arts in the islands. But we should remember this, that the earliest Europeans who visited the islands did not know the native languages, were not familiar about the native culture at the time, were ethno-centrists, and were in the Orient primarily to look for spices and not to do research on martial arts. Nobody can really say what kind of martial art these early travelers saw (if that was truly a martial art) when they first came that summer. We cannot even say that it was kali they saw, since they were not familiar about martial arts (like Draeger, Smith or Wiley). Let us also take note that during those times there was no unified form of government and people were not hooked in the Internet. People in the archipelago then (and this is still true until today) speak many languages, thus what was true in the island of Panay then, was not necessarily true in the nearby islands of Cebu or Samar. Forcing ourselves to believe that eskrima/arnis/estocada is something pre-Hispanic even without enough proof to support the theory is not advisable.
We only have the following objective facts to help us prove or disprove the current theory of the origin of the eskrima or arnis.

Fact #1 No written records available, which describes what this allegedly pre-Hispanic martial art of kali really was and there is no evidence to prove that eskrima/arnis/estocada martial arts are related to the art of kali.
Earlier writings mentioned how good those early natives were in hand-to-hand combat. These early European adventurers were maybe accurate in their appraisals since they were soldiers/fighters themselves and knew what was good form and what was not. But still the same, these available literatures do not give us details as to what kali really was. So kali can be everything, it can be stone throwing, wild boar hunting, yo-yo playing etc.

Fact #2 Research found out that the natives in the islands before the Europeans came used shields and spears, weapons that are no longer visible in the majority of the contemporary eskrima/arnis/estocada schools.
If it is true that kali is the martial art practice by the ancient warriors in the islands then it must have included the use of the tameng or shield and the bangkaw spear. Since the art of eskrima/arnis is derived from kali as some suggested then it must have these weapons included in the curriculum. Tameng is still useful even in the modern times; in fact riot police are still using this contraption to control angry crowds. Spears on the other hand are still found in many other martial arts.

Fact #3 The claims that historical personalities like Lapulapu, Tupas and others were really into kali or eskrima remained unproven.
Some so-called authorities of FMA always associate names like that of Lapulapu to eskrima, as if they were around already in 1500s. The funny fact is they could not even provide name(s) of who's who in the latter years (in the 1600s, 1700, 1800s) to strengthen their claims. How one could claim he is the great-great grandson of the great Mr. So-and-so if he does not even know who his biological father is?

Fact #4 All eskrima/arnis share more common traits than differences.
The Filipino stick fighting in many ways is really different compared to other stick fighting systems in the region. The eskrima styles as practiced by many Ilocanos in the far north of the archipelago are basically familiar to the styles found in the south, in the Visayas. There maybe differences in some expressions but generally speaking they are the same.

Fact #5 Practically all eskrima systems/styles are practiced only in the Christianized groups (or those who are under the direct influence of the Spanish conquistadors for 333 years), and that no known eskrima system/style is found among those peoples in the hinterlands of Luzon, among the Lumad and the Muslims in Mindanao.
The Spanish colonized the islands for 333 years, but they were not able to convert the entire population to the Christian faith. There were many ethnic groups left who were not directly controlled and influenced by them. Many of these groups are slowly assimilated still retain many of their pre-Hispanic practices. But if the theory is true that eskrima and the like is something originally pre-Hispanic, then at least one of these many tribal groups could show us sampling of a functional eskrima-like stick fighting art, but there is none.
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« Reply #8 on: 27.10.06 at 12:54:06 »

Part 2
Fact #6 A link between kali and silat styles is yet to be proven, both are really different in form and substance.
Many creative eskrimadors want to have this "Moro motif" integrated to their styles. In actuality eskrima/arnis has nothing to do with the Muslims groups in the south who have their own very beautiful and lethal martial art of silat. Many people foolishly attempted to establish link between the two, but until now they could not provide us enough evidence. In books and articles on eskrima they always include stories about juramentado just to add dramatic effect, but in reality all of these, has nothing to do with eskrima/arnis. Some insist that some of these Muslim tribes do practice some form of kali art. But if we inquire what tribe is that, they could not readily give answer. Some say it is in Sulu, but if we ask further which part of Sulu? Again there is no clear answer. Since the 70s when this claim first appeared, and until now nobody can really give the correct answer. Why? Well, the truth of the matter is, there is no kali in the Moroland. Just a pure fantasy. Is it possible to invent stories and fool the martial arts community? You bet! If you are familiar with the story of the Neolithic they reportedly found in Mindanao called Tasaday, you will easily understand how/why. In eskrima/arnis, emphasis is on weaponry first then unarmed fighting later, but in silat they have the weapons training only later.

Fact #7 About 65% of technical terms used in all eskrima/arnis/estocada developed and propagated by many linguistically diverse ethnic groups are of Spanish origin.
The Spanish language was never totally adapted by the Filipinos unlike those in other former colonies of the North and South America. This was because the colonial authorities in the Philippines did not encourage the natives to learn the language. For three centuries, only the elite and the educated could speak and write the Spanish language. A strange fact is, a great percentage of technical terms used in eskrima/arnis/estocada (and even the supposedly pre-Hispanic kali styles) are in Spanish, the language most Filipinos then (and now) did not speak. This is also the language used by the authorities who outlawed the practice and propagation of this native martial art. If the practitioners at that time were forced to practice in hiding, then why did they not use their own respective languages and dialects instead of using Spanish?

Fact # 8 The connection between kali and Indonesian martial art of tjakalele is not yet proven.
Tjakalele is practically just a war dance originated in the Mollucas. It uses spears and shields, the weapons, which are not found in 99% of kali schools. Words like kali and tjakalele may sound familiar and related but this not proves anything that both are actually related.

Fact #9 The suggestion that kali is the root word of some words found in different Filipino languages and dialects is not based on linguistics, in fact a study on this claim is yet to be made.
Important pre-Hispanic household words like diwata, Bathala, datu, ulipon are still understood by many and this same is also true with words associated with the warriors, like bangkaw, baraw, tameng. So what is supposed to be the ancient name for the Filipino martial art? Kali? If it is kali then, why don't we find this word in dictionaries of the different Filipino languages and dialects? In fact this particular word was just "re-introduced" years ago. Kali is never a traditional name for the native martial art. If one goes to a secluded place in Cebu for example and ask those eskrima old-timers there if they know what is kali, the will probably say they don't know. And these people are supposed to know better.

Fact #10 The earliest technical description about eskrima/arnis was available only lately.
The very first known book available in public was Yambao's book in
1957.

Fact #11 Many modalities in eskrima/arnis/estocada like espada y daga are also found in European fencing arts.

Fact #12 The once Spanish colony of Venezuela in far away South America also have their own form of stick fighting.
The Garrote Larense stick fighting art of Venezuela reminds one of eskrima. There must be a connection between these two martial arts somewhere and further research is needed.

Fact #13 It is baseless to say that eskrima or arnis are just phases of the natural evolution of kali, that is kali being the original form, eskrima and arnis the modern and diluted equivalents.
Kali that we can see today don't differ from eskrima/arnis. Some say that kali is on blades while eskrima/arnis more on sticks implying that kali is more combative, realistic and original form while eskrima/arnis as sanitized intended for sports. But in places where the word kali is not the traditional term used, the eskrima/arnis also included the practice of the bladed weapons. In fact many of those who categorize their styles as kali were actually derived from escrima/arnis styles.

Fact #14 There is no lack of good blacksmiths and is not the reason why many eskrima/arnis fighters use sticks now instead of real blades.
Many good eskrimadors are not found in areas known for their machete making skills. Many panday or sword smiths do not know eskrima and it is never mentioned in the Philippine history that Philippines were running out of bolos.

Fact #15 That the theory proposed is actually not corroborated in the works of the experts of the Philippine history, anthropology and sociology.
Intertribal war was a reality especially before the islands became a colony of Spain. When there is war, there are warriors, weapons and military arts. If kali was a military art then history books in high school and college must mention it. I do not remember reading a word kali in our history books when I was still in high school and college, instead in our world history I read words like samurai, katana etc. Books of anthropology must also provide details about it. It is not mentioned, not because historians are not interested, it is simply because there is no sufficient information about it.

So basing on the aforementioned facts, we can only offer logical comments as to the possible origin of the contemporary Filipino Martial Arts (a bigger portion of which is the eskrima/arnis/estocada/kali). It is basically a product of Filipino creativity and no doubt whatsoever, it is very Filipino. The bulk of its repertoire was developed during Spanish colonial times, and plausibly it got its inspiration from European fencing concepts and practices. It was greatly developed and refined (and the evolution still continues) only here in the islands of the Philippines.

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Karsten71
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« Reply #9 on: 12.02.09 at 01:41:15 »

nye avis til Escrima,....


http://www.stickfightermagazine.com/index.html
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makri
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« Reply #10 on: 04.08.11 at 23:46:18 »

Det jeg lurer på: Hva er forskjellen mellom tradisjonell eskrima/arnis/kali og Pekitia Tirsia Kali?
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« Reply #11 on: 05.08.11 at 07:03:44 »

Eskrima/escrima/arnis/kali er fellesbetegnelser for FMA generelt mens Pekiti Tirsia er en spesifikk stil innen FMA.
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« Reply #12 on: 05.08.11 at 21:46:49 »

Ok, takk biggrin
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